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The result of the debate was rename
Correct (singular) term. I checked the history to see what knucklehead named this category and...um...it was me. Her Pegship (tis herself) 19:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

• I've speedied this, being at the request of Moe the only contrib (and not to say, likely to be speediable-as-clear-cut anyway). Alai 02:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Nyuk nyuk nyuk! Her Pegship (tis herself) 03:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete
Never proposed, no category (thus malformed), no stubs, and a highly ambiguous name. Sonic lists a couple of dozen meanings, the most obvious of which is related to sound. This, however, relates to Sonic the Hedgehog (itself a dab page, though not nearly such a bad one). While it's quite possible that there would be enough articles related to Sonic the Hedgehog for this stub type to be worthwhile, it certainly isn't in its current messy form, and starting from scratch is the best option. Delete this and suggest creator actually proposes a properly named and formed subtype at WP:WSS/P. Grutness...wha? 01:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

deleteEli Falk 05:44, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. NRV. Dfrg.msc ^{1 . 2 . Editor Review} 08:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete in favor of India-lit-stub
41 articles, with associated project. Her Pegship (tis herself) 21:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Support ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 14:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete and move contents into {{India-lit-stub}} (see below). I've reconsidered my nomination to rename. Her Pegship (tis herself) 22:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
• Strong rename, and weak keep, given the WPJ. Alai 04:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename to US-southern-gospel-stub
From WP:WSS/D. Associated with a WikiProject, decently sized, just needs renaming. The only question is, would it be {{SouthernGospel-stub}} or {{Southern-gospel-stub}}? As in, is Southern Gospel a subset of Gospel? I'm certainly not an expert. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 19:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Note: Proposal discussion in November indicates it should have been {{US-southern-gospel-stub}}. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 19:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
• Rename to US-southern-gospel-stub. Alai 03:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete
From WP:WSS/D. 2 articles. No corresponding Cat:Dance songs. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 19:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Either delete, or rename to Cat:Dance music songs on the pattern of Cat:Dance music albums, create a corresponding permcat, and populate. (Simpler just to delete and worry about the second option later at /P, really.) Alai 03:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename to India-lit-stub
From WP:WSS/D. Feeds directly into Cat:India stubs. Used on exactly 1 article. Potential scoping problems with below. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 19:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Weak keep, mainly because the India project is quite productive and I think it'll get used; and rename {{India-lit-stub}} to conform with other lit-stub templates. However, this is the first lit-stub to be split off on geographic lines; I would like to know what other stubbers think about going this direction. Her Pegship (tis herself) 22:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and move (keeping redirect). I do wonder if by-language might be more useful. While the Indic language at least form a group, presumably this would with its present scope also cover India-related literature in English, Portuguese, etc... Alai 04:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

From the WPJ's tendencies and the habits of lit article sorters, I believe it would be for literature by people from Indic cultures (in any language). Her Pegship (tis herself) 04:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete in favor of India-lit-stub
From WP:WSS/D. No associated category. Used on exactly 2 articles. Potential scoping problems with above. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 19:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: The articles that use this tag will probably get restubbed with the further above {{ClassicalTamil-stub}} once it gets renamed. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 14:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete and move contents into {{India-lit-stub}} for now (see above). Her Pegship (tis herself) 22:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as malformed, problematic in scope-overlap, and either very underused, or much too narrow. Alai 04:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename and upmerge
From WP:WSS/D. 24 articles related to a city in Serbia. Not proposed. Possible rename of template to conform to NG, then umperging into Cat:Serbia stubs. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 18:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Rename and upmerge, per naming guidelines and size criteria. Alai 03:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename to SexandtheCity-stub
From WP:WSS/D. Decently sized, but just needs some renaming. {{SexandtheCity-stub}} is a bit long, but clear enough. Any other ideas? ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 18:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Problem is that the show has a very long title, which is why I used the abbreviation. If there is no precedent/guideline/policy against long named stub templates, I'd go with {{SexandtheCity-stub}}. Koweja 19:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC) (template creator)

Oh, and sorry about not listing it on the project page, I didn't know it existed until right now. Koweja 19:09, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Rename to {{SexandtheCity-stub}}. Still a fairly short template name compared with many that are in use. Grutness...wha? 00:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
• Rename to include the words "Sex" and "City", fercryinoutloud. Alai 03:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete
Wildly misnamed, both in terms of the naming guidelines and ambiguity. Strangely worded, no category, six stubs, several of which are the connection of a sportsperson to a sports team, which is generally frowned upon (yes, it's about the Chicago Bears, not the large mammals - and also not the the California Golden bears, the Knoxville Ice Bears, the Smiths Falls Bears, Phoenix Polar Bears, the Sydney Bears, the Brisbane Bears, etc etc etc). I don't think i need to add that it wasn't proposed. Appears to be a nascent WikiProject either started or about to - in which case a project-specific talk page template would make a load more sense. Delete Grutness...wha? 02:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Either rename to {{DaBears-stub}} for Da Bears or delete, with strong preference being given to delete. Caerwine Caer’s whines 06:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Strong Go Bears (and delete). Alai 03:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was keep
From WP:WSS/D. 41 articles. There's a better discussion on /D that I don't need to repeat here. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 18:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete too specific. -- Selmo ^(talk) 19:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
• I'd have to say keep, with the CW-style "judiciously-used" caveat. There seems to be well over 60 articles already tagged as WW2-stubs (not currently oversized, but a repeat customer at /T on earlier occasions), so separating out the biographies from the other-types-of-thing seems a straightforward and logical step. Used over-liberally, there would be potential for yet-more-multi-stubbing, it's true, but as far as the already-multi-stubbed articles are concerned, this would be an unqualified improvement. Alai 20:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was keep
From WP:WSS/D. A bit small at 24 articles, but there is a Portal:Creationism. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 18:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Weak keep (and an even weaker list). Alai 01:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
• VERY weak keep. With any luck the category will eventually evolve into something larger. Grutness...wha? 07:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • "evolve into something" nice one :) Koweja 15:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. The portal does an adequate job. PatriotBible 03:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was keep
From WP:WSS/D. We don't usually like to split people by state because they move around too much. However, this does have slightly over 60 articles. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 18:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Keep. Judiciously used, per state bio stubs are useful. I generally add a state stub type if a person has a notability that is specific to that state. Also Texas, with its period of independence has extra reasons for a stub of its own, not to mention those who were notable in Texas when it was part of Mexico or Spain. Caerwine Caer’s whines 04:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Weak keep. CW's argument seems broadly valid, though the 'judicious use' falls in the "there's the rub" category. Alai 01:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was variously delete and clean up per nomination
From WP:WSS/D. All associated with Wikipedia:WikiProject Cocktails

• {{cocktail-stub}} - Used on 50+ articles, keep and CLEANUP
• Cat:Cocktails (stubs) - the category currently being used, does not conform to NG, delete

I'm not sure how WP:NG applies here. Or does NG mean something else? Linking to the various terms, while a pain, is very helpful for people trying to learn the policies and guidelines that apply. Thanks. --Willscrlt 23:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, NG = Naming Guidelines, which can be found at WP:WSS/NG. Sorry about that. I usually try to link everything. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 03:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• Cat:Cocktail stubs - what SHOULD be used, keep and CLEANUP

• {{cocktail-micro}} - used on 20-ish articles that are "micro-stubs", this is completely non-standard, delete restub with {{cocktail-stub}}
• Cat:Cocktails (micro) - as above, delete

• {{cocktail-expand}} - (should probably be at MFD, but I'm trying to keep this discussion together), used on 20-ish articles that are "larger than stubs", non-standard, delete
• Cat:Cocktails (expand) - as above, delete

The end result (ideally) should be: {{cocktail-stub}} feeding into Cat:Cocktail stubs. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 16:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Approve all per Amalas, except relist {{cocktail-expand}} and Cat:Cocktails (expand) at MFD. —CComMack (t–c) 17:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
  • {{cocktail-expand}} and Cat:Cocktails (expand) are now listed at MFD here and here. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 17:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Okay. My bad. They're now at TFD and CFD: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 January 5 and Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 January 5. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 05:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• AMEND (see modified proposal under Alai's comments) DENY ALL - Hopefully we can fix specific problems rather than delete all these resources outright.

• Each of the items listed part of a massive cleanup project the WikiProject Cocktails is undertaking. It started in December and the cleanup project ends February 28th. At the very least, please do not delete these prior to that date. It has been soooo much effort to help categorize and tag all the articles, this would set us back terribly and just be devastating to the efforts of a small, but growing number of people who are helping to improve these broad section of articles. We have been making real headway, and these helpful tags and the related categories have been at the heart of organizing our work. If we did something wrong (and I'm sure we did since it's up for discussion here), please give us a chance to fix it.
• The micro-stub is something that is fairly unique to the cocktails pages. Within cocktails, there is a very common problem of articles that are nothing but a recipe for making a mixed drink. We are fully aware of WP:NOT#IINFO, but before deleting the information outright, we need to either transwiki the information to WikiBooks or integrate that information into List of cocktails or one of the other related lists.
• Prior to the micro-stub categorizing, these recipe-articles were being deleted--several per week--by people who did not understand the goals of the WikiProject Cocktails cleanup project. It severely disrupted the work flow and results of our efforts. Since creating and using that, we have had an increase in awareness, an increase in participation, and we have been able to get a lot accomplished. The "micro-stub" may be non-standard, but it's an extremely beneficial tool for categorization and cleanup for a somewhat unique problem our Project faces. Of all the proposed deletions, the micro-stub is the one I most strenuously object to at least through February, because it is so important to our ongoing work. We are working on transitioning to proper assessment of articles, so we only need about a week to make that change.
• I am not asking for an indefinite stay of execution on these things... just hold off on implementing any actions until we get a chance to fix things. These are intensive works in progress, not random templates and categories that were created on a whim. Each one was well thought out, and attempting to do so within the "proper" ways of doing things here. Unfortunately, Wikipedia has more guidelines and policies than the average well-meaning Wikipedian can possibly hope to learn in a short amount of time. But that does not give us an excuse, but I do ask that you give us the time to fix things without a horrendous disruption to our efforts. Thank you for your consideration. --Willscrlt 22:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• I have provided background information and some possible fixes on Amalas' talk page directly related to this that might be an acceptable alternative to deletion and the disruption that would cause for our WikiProject's efforts. Please consider the possible fixes we have suggested as an alternative to deleting these resources -- at least until March 1st. Thank you. --Willscrlt 23:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete/amend as per original nom. Vehemently, strenuously and absolutely delete cocktail-micro as a substub-style abomination. This could bbe handled far more effectively through WikiProject-specific talk page templates - it certainly doesn't need several grades of stub template. Grutness...wha? 00:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I swear Grutness, I'd think you were discussing a spider or something, not a variation on a stub category. (Said with a twinkle in my winking eye.) I get your point, though. --Willscrlt 10:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

If you knew the trouble we had with substub ((i.e., "this is even smaller than a stub") in the early days of WP:WSS, you'd know why! Grutness...wha? 22:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete/amend per nom. If the wikiproject would like help in listifying or talk-templatising these as an alternative, I'd be happy to do so. It's hardly reasonable to wait two months before dealing with these, though. Alai 01:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I may take you up on that offer, Alai. I have made pretty good progress on implementing proper assessment procedures for articles using some resources people have suggested to me. The biggest thing I need is help figuring out the Parser functions to make the Project talk-page header work properly. Right now I am setting up the infrastructure to handle the change around, but in a day or two, the template will be the thing I have to get working right. I have a first draft in my sandbox. It is based on the The Beatles WikiProject's template.

Two months will not be necessary. If people could see their way clear to grant up to a one week stay of action, that would be most appreciated. I did copy down all the article names, but it will be much easier to update if they remain linked. If not, I can live with that, too. All finished with the changes. It was suggested that I list the affected articles in the Project to-do list, which was a great and very workable suggestion. I have removed the cocktail-micro template from all articles. (Now is that cheering I hear Grutness? ;-) The Category:Cocktails (stubs) category is ready to be deleted. I would still like to see the following change made... --Willscrlt 13:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Could we amend the name change to "Mixed drink stubs", because that is a much better name. Cocktails are specifically drinks that are made primarily with distilled spirits (brandy, gin, rum, tequila, vodka, whiskey, and a few others), but excludes beer, wine, and non-alcoholic mixed drinks. Having now read the stub creation guidelines, especially the number of items that should be contained within a stub category (minimum of 60), it would not make any sense to create other stub categories for the various other types of mixed drinks. The change is also in line with the name change for the WikiProject itself that is coming under consideration (WikiProject Mixed Drinks instead of WikiProject Cocktails) for the same reasons. I mean, if we are going to go through all this bureaucracy, we might as well have something that benefits the WikiProject at the same time, right? So here is how I would like to see this all turn out:

• Cat:Cocktail stubs be moved to Cat:Mixed drink stubs and all articles updated to use that new designation.
• {{cocktail-stub}} (which is no longer part of this discussion) will be updated to {{mixeddrink-stub}} or something similar to reflect that change.
• Cat:Cocktails (micro) be kept until 08:00 UTC January 13, 2006 (midnight my time) (or sooner if I get done sooner), when it will be deleted and any remaining "micro stubs" (I hear Grutness screaming in pain at that name) will be merged into the new Cat:Mixed drink stubs category. Assuming I do finish this before the deadline, should I request a speedy delete at that point, or just wait for it to be killed off at the designated time by someone who remembers this conversation?
• Cat:Cocktails (expand) (which I think also was moved elsewhere for discussion) will be replaced by proper assessment methods of identifying inferior articles. Again, I request the category be kept until 08:00 UTC January 13, 2006 (midnight my time) (or sooner if I get done sooner), when it will be deleted and any remaining "extends" will be merged into the new Cat:Mixed drink stubs category. The related template will be replaced with the stub template, if anything is still using it (which there shouldn't be at that point). Assuming I do finish this before the deadline, should I request a speedy delete at that point, or just wait for it to be killed off at the designated time by someone who remembers this conversation?

This is all essentially what Amalas originally proposed, but implemented in a way that helps the WikiProject rather than harms it AND brings everything into compliance within one week. It sounds pretty fair to me. I hope you all agree. And thank you everyone (except maybe Grutness ;) for being so civil and generally very helpful in this very stressful situation. Fortunately I'm a long time community player (elsewhere), and I am not a quitter. I did freak out, but I'm okay now, and I am working toward a positive and cooperative solution towards this whole mess. All I'm asking for is the chance to make things right. And the offers of help are appreciated. :-) Thanks again. --Willscrlt 10:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Hrmph :) Hopefully the advice is useful. I think the flexibility of the talk page templates will - in the long run - be a lot more useful to you than the stub-like templates ever could havee been. Grutness...wha? 22:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep all. Willscrlt is leading this project singlehandedly it seems and he's organizing things the way he needs to. The cleanup will end at the end of February, I think you should give the project until then till you delete themm Nardman1 20:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Nardman1, but this has been an important push in the right direction for improvement

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The result of the debate was listed at WP:TFD
From WP:WSS/D. I'm not 100% positive this should be here (as opposed to WP:MFD), but these Sailor Moon-specific templates are acting like {{sectstub}} and {{listdev}}. -stub-section is used on 4 articles and feeds into Cat:Sailor Moon stubs. -stub-List is used on 3 articles. Delete this nonsense and use {{sectstub}} and {{listdev}} instead. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 16:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Those are Stubs templetes for the use of articles under WikiProject: Sailor Moon. They are for our use, Also They are still under constrution. We are well aware that they do not feed the articles into the proper Catigorys. I am informing the other Project and asking them to cast their votes. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 16:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Honestly, I could go either way. They're very cute, but I know very little about the stub-sorting project and how complicated it is, so I'd rather not make more work for those who do. --Masamage 17:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Relist at TFD or MFD. Not our problem, except the interaction with the stub category, which can be taken care of through normal editing and does not need a deletion debate. —CComMack (t–c) 17:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
  • These are now listed at WP:TFD here and here. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 18:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete
Never proposed, badly formatted (no category, to start with), only one stub (a programme stub)... and this is not how we split tv stubs! Delete Grutness...wha? 06:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Delete per nom. Even if we did split this way, ambiguous as to whether cable/sat channels or PPV events were meant. Caerwine Caer’s whines 19:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete
Never proposed, only one stub, and - judging by what's written under domotics - that stub doesn't actually relate to domotics in any way. Not likely to reach 60 any time soon (i.e., not in the next couple of years). Delete. Grutness...wha? 06:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Maintain the stub category. You can see what links to it, using: Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Domotics-stub. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mac (talk • contribs)

Erm, yes... that's exactly what I did, which is why I noted that Clothes valet isn't anything to do with Domotics (the link between something which is akin to a heated towel rail and home automation is tenuous, to say the least). Neither, for that matter, is Equip´baie (a trade fair for general home fittings), one of the three extra stubs which have been added to the category since I nominated this stub type for deletion. Given that Cat:Domotics has - along with its subcategory - only 32 articles (several of which are not stubs, and several of which probably don't actually belong there, since they have little to do with domotics), the chances of this haveing 60 currently existing stubs is remarkably slim. As such, i stand by my original comment that this should be deleted. Grutness...wha? 12:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Alai 01:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was keep; create Category:Hindu theology perm cat
Not proposed. No corresponding perm cat. I recommend merging with {{Hindu-philo-stub}} (also not proposed, but it's well populated and there is a Cat:Hindu philosophical concepts). ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 19:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Object Here is the proposal. The ensuing discussion produced 3 supports and no opposes for a consensus. Also, there is a significant difference between {{Hindu-philo-stub}} and {{Hindu-theo-stub}} as "theology" also includes rituals and ceremonies, godhead, scripture and a degree of mythology that "philosophy" does not usually encompass - there are a lot of stubs based on Vedic myths, ceremonies and theology that cannot be associated with the usual definition of philosophy. But Cat:Hindu philosophical concepts should serve as the main category for both these templates. Rama's arrow 21:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I did finally manage to find the full proposal. I do apologize for not finding it earlier. I always seem to search for things and not find them, only to have someone point it out shortly thereafter and I'm like "where did that come from?" Anyway, I can see that the text of {{Hindu-theo-stub}} does include things like scripture and ceremony, but that's not clear just by looking at the template name/category. Are you sure Cat:Hindu philosophical concepts is the right corresponding perm cat? What about Cat:Hindu texts and/or Cat:Hindu traditions? Maybe a clearer wording would benefit. Also, maybe we should have the parent just be Cat:Hinduism stubs instead of Cat:Hindu philosophy stubs so as to make it clearer that they are separate things. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 21:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

No problem - for some damned reason, I can't find a proper archive either. I don't think we should drop these stubs under the Hinduism cat, as that defeats the purpose of having a separate stub. I know it appears strange, but I would recommend creating Cat:Hindu theology, of which the Cat:Hindu texts and Cat:Hindu traditions would be sub-cats. I think the problem you are trying to attack here is of categories, not stubs - I wish we could control the creation of categories to an extent. Rama's arrow 23:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you are correct. I try to have the stub cats follow the perm cats as closely as possible. So I suppose when the two don't match up, I assume the stub cat is at fault. I'm not sure that simply creating a Cat:Hindu theology container will really solve anything though. Out of curiosity, is there enough Hindu texts to have its own {{Hindu-text-stub}} (similar to {{Christian-text-stub}}? Maybe splitting that out will help clarify some scope issues. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 23:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

No I don't think that will work, especially as a majority of the entries in the Christian text stub are commentaries, studies and modern versions. The present number of Hindu text stubs aren't enough. Rama's arrow 00:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The lack of a permcat does seem a little odd; is there any reason for why there's not? If these articles are all legitimately on Hindu theology, adding a new permanent parent would seem sensible. Alai 01:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Keep - I am probably one of the few updaters of this stub. Theology refers to taxts and commentary, while philospohy refers to actual concepts.Bakaman 03:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I suggest a name change. We don't even have an article called Hindu theology. Gizza^{Chat ©} 12:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Keep--D-Boy 15:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete
We don't normally split people by subnational region except in the rare case of politicians (who are always associated with their constituency). Only two stubs, and no need. And that's without even mentioning that the category name should be British Columbia people stubs". Delete. Grutness...wha? 04:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, I'm sorry I didn't know about the naming convention, or would have made this {{BritishColumbia-people-stub}}. Our history and even our current society is full of notable people who aren't politicians - as several historians have commented, BC's history is remarkable for its cast of "characters" - outlaws, publishers, mountain men, prospectors, flim-flammers, cultists, and so on; most of whom haven't been heard of - much less conceived of - east of the "Granite Curtain" (aka the Rocky Mountains; if that's a redlink I'll figure out what kind of article it has to be and write it; it's very citable and is as much a slang term as a state of mind...). So that's why I created the "bio-stub" - for biographies of non-politicians. If all these have to be in the Canadian people stubs, so be it, but "subnational" is a relative term for Canada...but perhaps only a Canadian from outside Central Canada would know what I mean by that...I've often had difficulty giving Canada stubs to things/people to do with BC before 1871, as we weren't part of Canada until then...Neutral but still would like to see {{BritishColumbia-people-stub}}. But hopefully I'll be diligent enough that I'll write articles, instead of just stubs, so the stubs won't be needed (?). Besides, why do the politicians get special treatment anyway? Lord knows they get enough special treatment as it is ;-| Skookum1 08:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstand. The template would be at the name it currently has, but the category should be Cat:British Columbia people stubs. Except, as I said, we don'tusually divide people by subnational arrea - we go for nationality first, then occupation. Politicians are the exception partly because there are so damn many off them with articles, and partly because they are just about guaranteed to stay connected to one area forr their entire careers. Grutness...wha? 10:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Delete, mobile people issues. Alai 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename to -poli-, upmerge to Canada politics stubs
A better possible split, but if we were to split on this basis, it would be BritishColumbia-poli-stub, by naming precedent. Only one stub. Delete, or possibly rename as upmerged template. Grutness...wha? 04:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

These stubs would not be for people but for issues/arguments and political events and various crises/scandals and so on -of which we've kind of got a monopoly, historically, even worse than Quebec (!). One such example is Solidarity Crisis, and for that particular "event" there's perhaps another five or six stubs that are needed; such that somebody wanting to look these up, or wanting to write on them, will find the definitions of the various articles already laid out. There's a good twenty scandals that are in need of at least stub creation, and a double that many of major political eras/quarrels, all of which have a name of some kind (e.g. BC Legislature Raids, which is still really only a stub despite having some content). The "split" here would be off the main {{BritishColumbia-stub}}, rather than off the people hierarchy. Adjust and keep (i.e. to {{BritishColumbia-poli-stub}} ).

I never suggested that this was designed to be for politicians. When I said "upmerged template", I meant to Cat:Canada politics stubs. Politics stubs take the form poli-stub, not politics-stub. Grutness...wha? 10:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Upmerge on size and naming precedent, move per -poli- precedent, but keep redirect. Alai 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete
A road stub I can understand, or a rail stub, but I don't think we've ever had a single "transportation stub" per se. Possible renam to -road-stub as an upmerged template, other than that, delete. Used on one article. Grutness...wha? 04:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Because I just put it there, as I happened to visit that page to check on something right after I craated the transportation stub. Transportation is a big theme in our history, as well as in current infrastructure, and as far as Material history goes we have a plethora of existing stubs and potential articles on the means and business of getting around our most difficult geography. Ferry routes, steamers and ships (including on at least 100 lakes and about thirty rivers), docks and ports, as well as historic routes, shipping companies etc. We're talking in the hundreds of stubs, perhaps well over a thousand. Marine highways are necessarily the same thing as ordinary highways here, and the ports that go with them are equivalent to bridges - do bridges get the roads stub, or nothing special at all (even though they're technically, after all, roads). As for railways, during the period a few hundred licensed, chartered railways were enacted under provincial legislation; up to 50 of them got built, most fairly short but each with a history and article-worthy material. So I thought a general "transportation" stub would cover the whole lot - rail, road, marine routes as well as their infrastructural components. Some also could get the "scandal" stub (poli-stub), by the way, but that's a longer story...{{tl:BritishColumbia-road-stub}} would do, although there's still no stub name for lists of ships, ports etc., nor the various freighting companies (many of which used roads as well as trails and steamers and even camels and hand-packers on trails where "road" would be a huge exaggeration...i.e. they were "intermodal"). Prefer to keep; again, if you want the Canadian stub cats cluttered with a few hundred new items, that would be the consequence of not creating a separate stub for BC for this stuff.Skookum1 08:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Shipping companies, ferries,s hips, etc, would all take a BritishColumbia-shipping-stub, if such existed. Roads ((I note the only stub using this stub template was a road) should take a BritishColumbia-road-stub, and railways would take a BritishColumbia-rail-stub - if there were enough for any of these three stub types. Personally, I think that there are likely to be enough for some of these... but lumping them together into a transportation stub is something that has never been done at a national level,let alone a subnational revel, hence things like {{Canada-road-stub}}and {{Canada-rail-stub}}. Grutness...wha? 10:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually that would be {{BritishColumbia-water-stub}} not -shipping- going by the example of the existing {{water-stub}} for water transportation stubs. Still, I'd like to see a viable {{Canada-water-stub}} before even considering a NC specific variant. Caerwine Caer’s whines 23:20, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Unless the border has moved south a few miles, i take it you mean BC not NC ;) And yes, it was water-stub I meant. Grutness...wha? 07:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, given that we've got, according to our popular/national mythology, 3/4 of the world's fresh water, and more lakes than I care to count....the {{Canada-water-stub}} is a pretty good idea all by itself; but knowing how many water bodies and streams there are in various provinces that are going to have articles (and in the case of streams, BC especially: see Category:Rivers of British Columbia and also Category:Lakes of British Columbia, both of which are far from complete. Other provinces have more lakes, and far less named streams of significance; out here a "creek" is often ten times the size of a "river" in other parts of the continent...(that's not a boast).Skookum1 08:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand - {{water-stub}} is used for water transport - boats, ferries, etc. Rivers and streams would all take a regional geo-stub, as with everywhere else. Grutness...wha? 11:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh...well, we're gonna have a lot of BC geo-stubs, then. Lots and lots of them....just started a discussion, I hope, among BC WikiProject members, for my idea about historical regions vs the unworkability of regional districts; have a look at the project's talk page and look for "historical regions of British Columbia" (it's very late or I'd link that directly; tomorrow am), because of this subdivision issue, if we can/want to do it. As for this water-stub, how is that different from the shipping-stub?Skookum1 11:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

That was my mistake - it's water-stub, not shippingg-stub (there isn't a "shipping-stub"). Grutness...wha? 02:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Delete, not the way these are split; re-sort to -road-, -rail-, etc, if those are viable. Alai 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete
Cuts smack through the middle of BritishColumbia-geo-stub, which would be further split by subregion, not by towns, which are one of the types specifically listed as beihng no-nos. Strong delete for this one, irrespective of the fact that it has quite a number of stubs. Grutness...wha? 04:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

It has "quite a number of stubs" because I started working my way through geo-stubs after creating it, although I only finished "A" and "B" in the category listing; any others that have it are incidental because I found them while looking up something else. Similar extreme-content issues apply here as for the other three stubs above. We have hundreds of small rural communities, including Indian Reserves, which will have to have separate articles, and they're located in such a way, and distinct enough from each other, that they can't be lumped together in articles covering a bunch at once. Dividing up the geo-stub by subregion then requires a BIG discussion about which subregions we use for that - because the Regional district system flexes all the time (virtually with every change of regime, often within eras of given regimes), and some Regional Districts that were around in my youth ('50s-'70s) are no longer extant. And nobody thinks of where they're from here in terms of Regional Districts. So that leaves "historic regions", not all of which have precise definitions and also which freely overlap in most cases, e.g. the Boundary Country is seen by some to be part of the West Kootenay, while in other reckonings it's part of the Okanagan. Even a discussion we had about what "Lower Mainland" means (the most populous part of the province, Greater Vancouver and then some) required an arduous discussion about exactly what definition it has; so "subregions" won't work here. Now, the further bit is that, in addition to the extant few hundred rural communities and Indian Reserves, British Columbia also has more ghost towns than the rest of North America put together, and a good couple of hundred of them are going to get articles, a good few dozen already have at least a stub. So this "geo-stub" cat, which also apparently must include rivers, islands and a host of other features, is also going to have over a thousand initial entries that are just towns and settlements (historical or current). And we have something like 15,000 islands....(PS I'm not meaning to be long or flip in all these comments; those familiar with my posts know I write this way naturally, and not to be ponderous or overblown; I just can't help it). So given the volume of communities articles, and the need for other subdivisions of the geo-stub cat, I must necessarily vote and plead Keep. And why are towns "no-no's"? Just asking....Skookum1 08:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Because overall about 80% of all geography stubs are for towns and communities. As such, it makes little or no sense to separatee them out from other geography stubs. Yes, there are likely to be big discussions about what subregions woould be best to use - similar discussions have occurred for about thirty countries so far, and also for some other parts of Canada (Ontario is divided by subregions). But that doesn't mean that consensus isn't possible on that. And given that people who are interested in geography tend, for the most part, to know about a particular area, it makes far more sense to divide geography stubs down by region and then subregion. The very few exceptions to this aare things hat specific editors aree likely to know a lot more about - nationalparks and ecoregions, for instance. It would be far more likely that an editor who knows about communities around Kamloops would also know about the mountains and rivers around Kamloops than they would about communities around Fort Nelson. This is why it says at WP:STUB: For example, geography stubs are sorted by country so you wouldn't want to create mountain-stub or river-stub. Grutness...wha? 10:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Delete, split the -geos up by regional districts, or any generally recognised coarser-grained sub-regions if those are currently too small. Alai 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename
Rename to more appropriate, and memorable, name. Mike Peel 11:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

• Seems sensible, especially given the possible ambiguity. Alai 01:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
• sounds like a good idea to me, too. BTW, you original comment about this on a WSS talk page menttioned {{astro stub}} and {{Astronomy stub}}. Those two redirects should be deleted, since they don't adhere to the naming guidelines (I've marked them as such - neither is used, BTW). Grutness...wha? 05:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

• The latter of those I created, and have tagged for speedy deletion. The former was not created by me; I support its' deletion. Mike Peel 10:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

• I had to think about this for a moment, but I support it. At first, I thought that the only other thing that "astro" could stand for was astrology, which I thought probably does not have its own stub template. Then I realized that "astro" could also stand for astronomer, which does have a stub template. The move therefore makes sense. Dr. Submillimeter 09:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
  • There's quite a few meanings at astro, and there's also an existing Cat:Astrogeology stubs type... fed from {{crater-stub}}, just to confuse matters. Alai 02:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
• Support. WilliamKF 19:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
• Rename. Definitely avoids confusion. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 14:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. Current name is concise and on-target. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 03:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
• Rename per Amalas Kamope | userpage | talk | contributions 12:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
• Rename makes sense to me. "Astro" brings to mind astronautics, rather than astronomy. — RJH (talk) 22:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
• Rename. Why not. Nick Mks 17:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was speedy rename
I propose to rename this category: Cat:South American mythology stubs
When I was a new user with this group you helped me to create 2 stub categories, one for North American mythology and one for South American, however, on South American I accidentally forgot the "N" at the end of "American" Goldenrowley 02:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• It's a done deal. Alai 08:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for helping! Much appreciated! Goldenrowley 15:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename/rescope to Category:Ceramic art and design stubs
I propose to rename this category: Cat:Ceramic art and pottery stubs I became aware this week of a few comments that the "ceramic stub" is unclear, that ceramics have industrial and applied uses uses, not just art, over on the discussion page at ceramics (art)... looking at the ceramics stub, the parent is ceramics (art). When I nominated it lastyear, it was because we badly needed some art categories and this holds the large bunch of ceramic art and pottery stubs. I think this is the best solution. Goldenrowley 02:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• As the permcat is just Cat:ceramics, I don't think the "and pottery" is appropriate. I'd be OK with a rename to Cat:ceramic art stubs or Template:Ceramics (art) stubs. Maybe a rename of the permcat would be in order too, though, as ceremics vs. Cat:ceramic materials is a tad subtle. Alai 08:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Hello. As I am new to Wikipedia I hope you will excuse me if I use the incorrect terminology. However, renaming as "ceramic art and pottery" is a mistake. At best this could be considered tautology, but even worse is that it may confuse some that pottery is wholly distinct from ceramics, whilst it is of course a type of ceramic. Why not just use ‘ceramic (art)’? Disambiguation using parentheses seems sensible, and I suggest the following: ceramic (archaeoloical significance), ceramic (art), ceramic (domestic), ceramic (engineering), ceramic (commercial production), ceramic (materials)

Thanx,Theriac 15:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• Change scope. I disagree with the proposal, although I do understand the thinking behind it. "..and pottery" is not appropriate as indicated by Alai, and in any case, pottery is a type of ceramics, not distinct from it.

The discussion has arisen because it has become apparent that there are many ceramics-related articles which are not covered, or are only very debatably covered, by the present ceramics-stub as long as it is only art-related. If the stub is amended to ceramics-art-stub, or left as it is, there will need to be a large number of subjective decisions about which individual ceramics producers make "art" and which do not - a POV can of worms. I would strongly object to renaming Category:Ceramics to what was suggested, by the way, and for the same reason.</