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The result of the debate was upmerge
From SFP. Undersized stub type, upmerge and delete category. Monni 14:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• Weak upmerge; it's a bit small, though school articles being what they are, doubtless not for long. BTW, shouldn't we have upmerged templates for schools in the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, and Nunavut? Alai 18:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was keep
From SFP. Undersized stub type, upmerge and delete category. Monni 16:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: See also discussion at Stub sorting-Discoveries. I agree, there aren't many articles right now, but I still think the stub category has potential. The category is 40 articles right now and everyday I find new stubs related to Asturias which are not under any stub category. It surely will be created again more sooner than later¹. I'd give it a chance. · Ravenloft · ^{· (talk) ·} 11:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  

¹ (being part of that phenomenon which Grutness once defined as "the surreptitious split of Spanish stubs by region": Cat:Galicia stubs, Cat:Cantabria stubs, Cat:Catalonia stubs, Cat:Balearic Islands stubs, Cat:Land of Valencia stubs, ...) - update note on 15:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any relation in articles having no stub tags at all and necessity of having this specific "general" stub. I still think primarily we should try to use existing stubs and if those get too big, then split just one stub at a time, not all stubs related to one region and stuff them to generic "regional stub". Monni 05:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyway my point was that there are lots of stubs specifically related to Asturias that would need to be tagged, and if we follow the same criteria that now allows the present existence of the other "Spanish regional" stubs, it seems legitimate to tag them with that "general" Asturias one.

Those Spanish regional stubs seem to have been created because of two main reasons: 1. Cat:Spain stubs category was becoming too big, or vague. 2. There are some subjects related to territories with strong national identities, nowadays included in the Kingdom of Spain (pretty much like the United Kingdom, see Spain-identities), that would need a more specific treatment.

So if we follow the reasonable criteria you propose, we should delete the Cat:Asturias stubs but also all the existing Spanish regional ones (at least the undersized ones). -- · Ravenloft · ^{· (talk) ·} 12:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

All I'm saying is that biographies should be first in Cat:Spanish people stubs and not Cat:Spain stubs, after biography stub category fills up too big, they would eventually end up in Cat:Asturian people stubs unless there is some specific WSS guideline that suggest there is better place to sort them. Monni 18:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if {{Asturias-bio-stub}} would come under the type of reservation we apply to "<US-state>-bio-stub", or if it would make sense as a "well-defined regional identity". Basically, does "being an Asturian" (as opposed to "coming from Asturia") pass any likely Shibboleth test? Alai 18:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Does every US state have own language? Asturians have own language and constitution if I understood the article correctly. Monni 18:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

If you're suggesting that the appropriate test would be "speaks asturianu rather than castellano", I'm guessing we'd run fairly rapidly into problems there. But I'm open to being convinced otherwise. Constitutions don't help much: I couldn't tell you for certain whether .es autonomous communties (or provinces) have them, but U.S. states certainly do, and that doesn't stop people from being "from" three or four of 'em. Alai 19:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I only implied that if enough "normal" tests apply, then any sub-category is justified... It's like me... I'm descendant of Livonian person and I really despise if people identify me as Latvian, just because Latvia does control half what was Livonia (including Ikskile, "capital" of Livonia). Back to topic... All {{Asturias-bio-stub}}s should be about people who have strong enough connection to what was Asturias before it was joined to Spain. Rest should be tagged with only {{Spain-bio-stub}} and nothing else. This issue was discussed elsewhere and what was said there still applies here. Monni 20:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It's over 60 now, so I'm inclined to say keep unless I'm missing some other deep-seated problem? Alai 18:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete
In this CfD discussion, we deleted all hyphenated "singer-(instrumentalist)" categories. This stub thus seems like it serves to join two concepts that should be unjoined, and if so, the category should be deleted as were its brethren.--Mike Selinker 04:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The stub was created primarily as a way of helping to split the overlarge stub category Cat:Singer stubs. That category is just barely overlarge now and likely could be resorted down to an acceptable size, using country specific templates instead even with these 131 stubs being tossed back to the parents. Weak support so long as we have actual editors rather than a bot to do it. Caerwine Caer’s whines 05:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename/rescope to PRC-x-stub; delete Mainland China

(Added {{China-struct-stub}}, Cat:People's Republic of China building and structure stubs, and Cat:People's Republic of China geography stubs to the discussion.) Caerwine Caer’s whines 02:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I've come to the conclusion that part of the problem with a number of the stub types relating to "China" is the template names: China can denote the historical entity; PRC (including annexations) and RoC collectively; just the PRC, or even just mainland China, it's alleged. While the broadest definition might make sense in historical contexts, for most purposes we seem to be going with modern day countries (or what some people would prefer were the modern day countries). So I suggest we do one of two things: a) scope the stubs as the People's Republic, rename the stub templates to {{PRC-geo-stub}}, etc, and delete the "Mainland" category; or b) scope the stubs as the Mainland, rename to {{MainlandChina-geo-stub}}, and create corresponding "X of/in [Mm]ainland China" permcats. On the basis that several of the last have already been deleted in the past ("controversially", according to some sources), and there seems no great enthusiasm to recreate them, and also on the presumption that we scope geography, buildings, people etc on the basis of present-day boundaries of present-day sovereign states, my inclination is towards the former. However, my much stronger preference is for something consistent either way, and what I'd very much like to see is an end to edit-warring on these and other such issues, so I'm mainly hoping for a clear-cut outcome either way. Alai 02:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

• Let me first quote something very relevant from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese):

  Wikipedia should reflect the neutral reality and not use the term "China" to coincide with any particular state or government. In particular, the word "China" (in a political, diplomatic or national sense referring to current affairs) should not be used to be synonymously with areas under the current administration (government) of the People's Republic of China i.e. (geographically) within Mainland China. (Historical and such 'old-name' Geographic and political references before 1945—1947 excepted.)

  Since we do geography stubs on the basis of current political boundaries, then by the naming conventions we have a mismatch and something must be done, as neither People's Republic of China nor Mainland China is appropriate for the existing templates. No strong feelings about whether to use PRC or MainlandChina, but plain China should be used only when both the PRC and the ROC are being covered and/or the period before the current de facto partition is included. Caerwine Caer’s whines 02:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Well technically, template names aren't within the scope of NCs, but as to their spirit, I agree. I'm a bit surprised if you can't generate at least a mild preference for scoping consistency between permcats and stubcats, though (as I say above, in either direction: either "following" or "leading"). Alai 03:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's all the "China-*-stub" templates I could find:

• {{China-actor-stub}}
• {{China-band-stub}}
• {{China-bio-stub}}
• {{China-company-stub}}
• {{China-film-stub}}
• {{China-hist-stub}}
• {{China-mil-bio-stub}}
• {{China-mil-stub}}
• {{China-music-stub}}
• {{China-musician-stub}}
• {{China-org-stub}}
• {{China-painter-stub}}
• {{China-politician-stub}}
• {{China-royal-stub}}
• {{China-singer-stub}}
• {{China-sport-bio-stub}}
• {{China-struct-stub}}
• {{China-stub}}
• {{China-tv-stub}}
• {{China-writer-stub}}

Note I haven't looked at these, much less tagged them: feel free to wade in, all. Alai 03:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Already added struct above. The rest of these, I'm ok with the rest of these China-*-stub so long as the corresponding cats are scoped appropriately. Caerwine Caer’s whines 04:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment [1] Wasn't this dealt with three month ago?
• stub types should at least pretend to be something people can remember off-hand. China is China whether it includes Taiwan or not and China is the recognized common name for the PRC. Nobody, not even the most ardent KMT diehard denies that. Yes, Taiwan/ROC stubs should be in a different stub-sorting mechanism. That has no bearing at all on China/PRC stub-sorting.
• Yes, these should mate to the more permanent categories. Any subdivision of China, or sub-topic, with enough stubs to make a valid sub-container should make one. Just glancing at them current, I'd suggest Guangzhou and Shanghai could probably make a dent in the huge collection of generic stubs here.
• No, we should not have categories named Mainland China - anymoreso than we have categories for Mainland Finland, English Canada, or Metropolitan France. SchmuckyTheCat 09:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - China-geo-stub is fine. The proposals for replacement stubs are not necessary. Please remove the "stub for deletion" tag, thank you. Badagnani 10:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  • By the naming conventions, if the template is kept as {{China-geo-stub}} then the category needs to be renamed to Cat:China geography stubs with Cat:Republic of China (Taiwan) geography stubs being made a child category. I will agree on the basis of the earlier discussion back in December that we should probably not use Mainland China and the choice is whether to have a distinct PRC level in the geography stubs or not. Caerwine Caer’s whines 17:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment (and "vote") A similar situation exists with Congo, with the exception of the fact that one Congo doesn't claim the other as part of its territory. The solution there is to have DRCongo-X-stub and RCongo-X-stub. A similar situation here would be to have PRChina-X-stub and ROChina-X-stub, which I would favour. I would also like to see taiwan-X-stub types kept as redirects. Note that in several cases, notably the hist-stub, keeping "China" makes sense, since many of the stubs refer to both ROC and PRC. In those cases, redirects from ROChina-X- and PRChina-X seem reasonable. Grutness...wha? 23:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  • PRC is a pretty standard abbreviation. A redirect either way might be a sensible step. Alai 03:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
• re: the tagging in of the struct types: note that Cat:Mainland China building and structure stubs has already been edit-warred and speedied into extinction. I removed a speedy tag from China-geo-stub in taking the discussion here, but neglected to check for similar actions elsewehere. (More potential fodder for DRV, I suppose.) Alai 03:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: It should not have deleted, since, as you have stated for China-geo-stub, it's not eligible for speedy. It was emptied without any discussion before hand. — Instantnood 11:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Why was it deleted? - Privacy 21:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: It's not easy to address several matters in one go - it would have been better not to deal with so many matters in one single SFD discussion. First, some of these stub types were created for China in general. Such stub types include, e.g., -bio-, -hist-, -music-. The reasons was that many of such stub articles are related to topics predate or are not relevent to the establishment of the PRC. Some of these topics are about, say, people who moved from the mainland to Taiwan following the war between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party. Second, while it is better to have properly named templates, I am convinced that since names of the templates would not be shown in articles, it is not as necessary for templates to be named as properly as articles and categories.

  Third, if we are to follow present-day boundaries, the rule still applies to support creation of stub categories for mainland China. Companies, for example, are set up according to laws of the legal jurisdictions where they are registered. Films share a similar situation, since cinema of Hong Kong (and cinema of Taiwan too) have their own histories and paths of development. Fourth, as long as perm categories are concerned, user:Alai said there is no active effort to keep the perm cats for mainland China. She/he seems to have disregarded their fact that many of mainland China perm cats were emptied and speedied instead of provided by discussion and consensus. There's no way to create any new perm categories for mainland China, or recreate the old ones, since they will almost always be emptied or speedied soon after their creations.

  Fifth, user:SchmuckyTheCat said we don't have categories for English Canada and Metropolitan France. The fact is that few if not no sovereign states are, with respect to its special territories, organised like the PRC. The United Kingdom does not consider Bermuda, Gibraltar, etc. to be part of the UK, whereas the status of the départements d'outre-mer (overseas departments) of France are just the same of the départements in Europe. Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles are not part of the Netherlands, but they are together with the Netherlands three constituent parts of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. The equivalence of "United Kingdom" and "Netherlands" in the case of the PRC is "mainland China".

  The outcome of the discusion made in December 2006 was to create PRC stub cats as umbrella of the mainland China, Hong Kong and (when created) Macao stub cats in the case of -geo- and -struct-. The decision goes in line with Wikipdia:naming conventions (Chinese)#Political NPOV, which provides that "China" should not be used in place of "mainland China". — Instantnood 11:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep all categories for mainland Chinese stubs. Michael G. Davis 04:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep the category. Keep the template as a redirect if it is renamed. - Privacy 07:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
• The category for mainland China stubs should be kept. Passer-by 21:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• And why should I not be surprised that it has to be the three users above? Wikipedia is not a democracy. Explain your votes.--Huaiwei 11:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Come on, let's not play politics with a freakin template name... china-xxxxx is something that is easy to remember. The whole rationale for renaming is bunk. People who do stub sorting don't need this kind of mess. 66.131.72.159 04:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. — Instantnood 18:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was no clear consensus, defaulting to keep. Per the Chinese naming convention, scope China inclusively
Same issue as above. Permanent parent category for the China type is Category: Universities in the People's Republic of China and there is no Category: Universities in China. Taiwan has a undersized but separate stub type. If kept as is, the scope needs to expand to include the institutions in the Republic of China as well. Caerwine Caer’s whines 03:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

• Rename templates, and either rename categories, or upmerge on size, don't much mind which. For extra credit, resolve the "and college(s)" inconsistency (to whichever is allegedly conventional). (To wit, Cat:Universities and colleges in the Republic of China vs. the others mentioned.) Alai 03:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: Do we have category:Fooian university stubs or category:Fooian university and college stubs? — Instantnood 11:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: This stub type applies only to universities and other tertiary institutions in mainland China. (Several months ago I found one or two universities in Taiwan were mistagged, but that had been fixed.) Meanwhile, a perm cat for universities in mainland China was created as a result of a recent CFD concluded in January 2007. If perm cat is a basis for stub cat to follow, the category for this stub type should follow accordingly. I don't have much opinion towards the name of the stub template. It doesn't appear in the articles anyway. — Instantnood 12:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete unless rename as Category:Mainland China universities stubs. Mainland China is strictly speaking not the same as China. Michael G. Davis 05:01, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and adjust perm cats But Mainland China is part of China. Stub types don't have to be overly precise, especially when it would lead to undersized stub types as in this case. There are not, and likely will never be enough stub articles for a Macau-university-stub or a HongKong-university-stub, and even Taiwan-university-stub looks doubtful. I don't see the need for a Mainland China stub type here, regardless of one's views on the desirability of such categories in general. Given that some of the institutions were founded before even the 1911 Revolution, and the small size, I've concluded that it would be best to merge this to a single stub type covering all institutions of higher learning in China, regardless of exactly when or where they exist, with Taiwan-university-stub either upmerged to this or placed as a subtype. Caerwine Caer’s whines 05:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
  • There wouldn't be much different in terms of number of stubs to cover institutions in Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan. It currently covers only mainland China, it isn't undersized. There isn't any cross-boundary stub types except for continents. Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan were already separated politically before the 1911 Revolution. The 1911 Revolution wasn't a watershed. Michael G. Davis 08:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Obvious keep. The scope should be better defined to tell what it is about. - Privacy 07:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
• I have briefly glance through the titles. They are all universities in mainland China. Keep and define its scope as per what it is already about. Passer-by 21:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I looked at the same list, and I agree they are all universities in China, as well as the People's Republic of China. Either expand China-university-stub into a stub cat for both Chinas, or rename it as People's Republic of China-university-stub.--Huaiwei 11:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename
Under the gen. princ. of no abbr. in cat. names, rename to match the perm. par. cat. Cat:World Wide Web. Caerwine Caer’s whines 05:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

• R/n per C/w. (but the template can stay at www-stub) Grutness...wha? 05:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Cmt. That's only a redir. to web-stub. Caerwine Caer’s whines 08:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
  • rename - no reason to abbreviate the category name. Eli Falk 08:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was speedy delete with agreement of creator
Neither proposed, both dreadfully named. Stub Parent (Cat:Australia television stubs) is not in need of splitting, with only 300 stubs. Little likelihood of the first reaching threshold, and it has no permcat parents (networks, yes, stations, yes - but channels, no). Unnecessary. Delete. (Note: If kept, then renaming is required). Grutness...wha? 23:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete I agree that they should be deleted. I appologise for creating them, as at the time I was unable to find (Cat:Australia television stubs). Thanks. Stickeylabel 23:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename
Poorly named, poorly worded, never proposed, and a quick count through the Poland stubs reveals just 22 coats of arms. Admittedly there seem to be quite a few Polish coats of arms on WP, but an upmerged {{Poland-heraldry-stub}} would be the way to go, if we wanted such a stub. I'm not entirely convinced it's needed. Definitely a rename at least, if not an outright deletion. Grutness...wha? 04:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Rename (and presumably keep upmerged) or delete. Alai 04:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Wikipedia is not a genealogical directory. Even if a good article that would be more than a genealogical dictionary entry could be written about a coat of arms (as opposed to the person, family, or institution that uses it, in which case a section of that article should be about the coat of arms) , it would be in almost all cases be information of so little notability that the article would be deleted on those grounds. Caerwine Caer’s whines 05:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Rename and Delete redirect, naming guidelines. Copyedit template. Monni 20:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
• Rename. {{Heraldry-stub}} is used on a ton of Polish articles, and the Polish material is the only potential splitoff. Finding 60 relevant articles is no problem at all. Valentinian ^{T / C} 19:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Update: That should have read: Cat:Polish coats of arms has a ton of stub-class articles. Most of the articles in this category are stub-class. Valentinian ^{T / C} 20:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete, use talk page templates
Announced as a fait accompli on the proposals page. This is for Infra red Inland Revenue Iran One of the other things at IR No, it's not for any of the dozens of things listed at IR - it's actually for Irish Republicanism, a subject which would and should be bettter handled by {{Ireland-hist-stub}}. I've no objection to adding an {{Ireland-poli-stub}} to the list, but this one is a likely edit-war magnet, has no precedent in the stub tree (nor would one be likely), and has no equivalent permcat (there is no Cat:Irish republicanism). As such, this should be deleted. Grutness...wha? 04:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• I agree about the template name, and lack of a permcat presenting a scoping problem, but I think those are both fixable. I'd suggest the creation of a permcat along the lines of Cat:Irish Republicanism or Cat:Irish Nationalism, at least if we can scope those in such a way to make clear we're not talking about the likes of Brian Cowen, and renaming the stub template in line with that. Using a -hist-stub on what's largely a bunch of biographies of living or relatively recently deceased people doesn't seem a good model; -poli- (or -poli-bio-) isn't unreasonable, but is clearly much broader than is intended here. Alai 04:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, with a willingness to accept adding an {{Ireland-poli-stub}}. Caerwine Caer’s whines 05:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, ambiguous name. Monni 05:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep This is a stub for use by Wikipedia:WikiProject Irish Republicanism. I didn't create the stub, but the project was informed the stub was broken due to the lack of category, and that it shouldn't have been created without going through the proper channels. I couldn't create the permacat so I did what I hoped was the right thing and brought the stub to the proposals page. {{Ireland-poli-stub}} already exists in some form, but it doesn't cover the necessary scope. The Wikiproject covers all aspects of Irish Republicanism, from the original Irish Republican Army all the way through to the Provisional Irish Republican Army and Sinn Fein and beyond. The stub isn't exclusively for use with people either, it can include articles such as Barrack buster. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 17:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Somehow I still think this should be handled in a different way... One possibility would be using talk page template like a few other WikiProjects use... Somehow defining the stub to too broad doesn't sound like a good idea. I also think that this atleast needs new name. Monni 18:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I've nothing against a talk page template one, it's just I'm very new to templates and stubs and I'm only trying to somehow fix a problem I didn't create. Thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename to "American hip hop group stubs"
Rename for consistency - all other stub and permcats use "hip hop" with two words. Grutness...wha? 23:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• Rename instead to Category:American hip hop group stubs, per Category:American hip hop groups. It is ridiculous, I think, that the convention of the parent cat has more sway than the convention of categories in the subject area.--Urthogie 00:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
• Rename per nom. The general pointlessness of having half of the U.S. stub categories at "United States blether stubs", and the other half at "American yakkity stubs" has been debated here endlessly (and likewise, British/U.K.). Alai 02:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Categories should guide consensus for stub names more than other stubs. I don't care that much, although let's just say that its pretty obvious the stub beuracracy has more effect on what the stubs are called than the actual editor of the given subject... yknow the people who actually use those categories...-Urthogie 02:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Until such time as we cease juggling word order, dropping prepositions, etc, we're in any event going to have to make stub-specific determinations about what a category name should reasonably be. In the permcat hierarchy itself, we have a significant amount of flip-flopping between "American X" and "Y in/of the United States", so "follow the parent no matter what" isn't, and for the forseeable future can't be, a universal solution. In any event, no-one is being forced to use those categories by actually typing the offending name (unless they're tweaking the stub category hierarchy itself, or explicitly linking to it), so the only likely 'hardship' involved is looking at it. (Which is true either way, of course.) Alai 18:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• Rename to Category:American hip hop group stubs per Urthogie. Caerwine Caer’s whines 19:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete
Unproposed. If it had been proposed, we would have pointed the proposer to the longstanding series of {{ethno-group-stub}} types which already exist and serve an indentical purpose to this stub. Delete as redundant. Grutness...wha? 23:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Hilariously, your suggested ethnic subgrouping template is so incomplete as it doesn't even include the groups of the Americas, which only underlines how neccessary it is to develop Wikiknowledge about the topic of indigenous cultures, which my template is used for (as most of the world's indigenous or uncontacted peoples live in South America). Even if it were there I wouldn't use it, as simply saying someone is part of an 'Ethnic group' is ignorantly vague. The situation and definition of indigenous people is vastly more than that.

There is a real lacking in Wikipedia in the area of articles about indigenous cultures, which is sad because these cultures are falling into disarray and extinction as we speak, all the more easier because education about their cultures is restricted to Scientific Journals. While I understand I have violated some process which I wasn't aware of, please think about the effect this deletion will have as a tool to those interested in growing articles about indigenous peoples.Yeago 00:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

So, did you consider proposing the "missing" ethnic subgrouping for the Americas? Or did you perhaps create one specifically for the Americas? No, you duplicated an existing one. And why is it called "ethnic groups" rather than "indigenous"? For two reasons. Firstly, the term "indigenous" is far more vague (thank you for the 'compliment' of "ignorant", BTW), since it implies that all people have developed and stayed in the same place. Secondly, it becomes far narrower than the term ethnic group, as it would not allow for other non-"indigenous" peoples. Nomadic peoples could not be included in it, neither could transplanted populations. or are you suggesting that neither of these two types of people deserve to have stub categories? Since it is a virtual duplicate - albeit one with a less inclusive scope - deleting it will have no effect whatsoever on the articles you speak of, since they will still be able to be found by the same editors who have been editing them up until now. Grutness...wha? 05:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I did not consider proposing the ethnic subgroup, just as you did not consider a simple rename. That would have been above and beyond the group-think of these XfD pages which is always a parroting choir of "Delete per nom". I already pleaded ignorance on this matter and yet you charge on, instead of correcting my mishap. Oh well, I'll take the bait.

Of course nomadic peoples could be included. Here again you embarass me with your wisdom. Nomadic peoples typically roam circuits, and these circuits lay within a region. Therefore... _______. I'll let you fill in the blank, but of course since you're such an expert I'm not telling you anything new. You were simply testing me with a red herring of nonsense.

Actually, I created a few of the articles in question and am the sole editor of them in some cases, so that pretty much kaputs your wonderful conclusion that they already have full traffic, doesn't it sarge? Do you think I created the special stub category for my own tomfoolery and fun? Do you think I did it for the same reasons you do what you're doing now--"Ah-ha. Look what I can do. I can delete a page. Nevermind a simple fix would complete the existing system! It should have been proposed!!! For process and principle is so much more important than good results!" No. I am a Wikipedian. I actually research things. I require advanced tools to do my job correctly. Are you here to improve the category system or aren't you? Are you going to do something about the missing ethno-stub category, or aren't you? You're the one who brought it up. You showed me the light of the ethno-stub templates. I pointed out their incompleteness. And here you sit, typing away in a thousand times the effort and time it would take than to simply rename. The innards of Wikipedia can be a really sad place, and its no wonder I don't tread here often.Yeago 08:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Blah blah blah. I'm done being ornery. What can I do to complete the templating system you suggested? Will a simple rename suffice? I don't think the proposal process is really neccessary here, as we all know there's really no debate in saying South America simply isn't represented in the ethno templates. I know, its not according to the process, but that's what WP:IAR is for =). Let's get it done. Yeago 02:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't follow your logic. If the only editor using the category that has been suggested for deletion is you, and you now know what other categories there are, yes, my point about anyone who have been working on articles in the category knowing where to find them if this stub type is deleted is pretty justified. No, of course I don't think you created the stub type for your own tomfoolery or fun. I think you created it because you did not know there were existing stub categories which could take the articles. "A simple fix", as you put it, would still have required coming through here, since there is no speedy deletion criterion for the creation of a duplicate category or stub template system. If there had been, we wouldn't be having this conversation now. Unfortunately, a "rename" of an existing category to a new name would still require some process because of the deletions involved (it isn't a speediable criterion). Rather than arguing this out, though, moving to actually complete the schema is far more fruitful. There probably still should be some form of proposal so that numbers can be checked to see whether full stub types with categories or simply upmerged templates are needed, but I suspect it's more likely to be a "rush job", since I don't think too much debate on it is likely - the only real problem is quibbling over whether ethnic group indigenous, or native, is the better name/scope. I've made the proposal, BTW - have a look here. Grutness...wha? 10:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Caerwine Caer’s whines 00:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. It seems strongly preferable to split ethnic groups by geography, not by "indigenousness". Alai 02:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Why is delete the knee-jerk antitode to this? Why not simply rename it to a more specific title? Are we really debased to quibbling about a title? There is more to this than what this template happens to be called. This is a tool for people like myself to track these scant articles. What can I do to negotiate? I need this to help my researches.Yeago 04:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Since you ask, you might try adopting a more civil tone, for one thing. Alai 18:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• Rename {{SouthAmerican-stub}} Cat:South-American indigenous peoples stubs as they do not yet exist.Yeago 05:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment to parallel the existing {{NorthAm-native-stub}} / Cat:Indigenous peoples of North America stubs that should be {{SouthAm-native-stub}} / Cat:Indigenous peoples of South America stubs for the template, which as long as there are 60 existing stub articles, I'd have no problem with. The category slightly breaks the naming guidelines for stub categories, but I've never been that big a fan of enforcing the preference for the demonyminal adjective first convention where it breaks the parallelism with the permcat. Caerwine Caer’s whines 05:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

You seem to enjoy this nosepicking, you name it. I really do not care what it is named. These are mere technicalities. See to it, courageous deletionist. I knight thee Caerwine of Nitpickydom, Destroyer of Inconsistency. God shall smile upon Great Holy Works such as you have just illustrated.Yeago 06:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

A suggestion, Yeago - read WP:CIVIL. Also, read the naming guidelines of stub templates and categories. They may tell you some things you clearly do not know. Grutness...wha? 05:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• • A South American type seems a perfectly sound idea, upmerged if there's insufficient population. If there's sixty or more, then I'd prefer Cat:South American indigenous people stubs as the name. For some sort on consistency, the template name certainly needs the -native- or -ethno- element, though I'm not a huge fan of "forcible abbreviation", so a redirect from {{SouthAmerica-native-stub}} to {{SouthAm-native-stub}} (or m.m. -ethno-) would be fine with me. Alai 18:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Support of {{SouthAm-native-stub}} and Cat:South American indigenous people stubs ^Cat:Indigenous peoples of South America stubs (like the permanent category name)^ to mirror North America its really a logical solution: as South America was colonized by waves of European and African ethnic groups (much like North America). The word Indigenous is precise as well, but native is easier to type when stubbing. Goldenrowley 02:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Did a little more research and the the existing stub for South America indigenous people is "{{Pre-columbian-stub}}" by it's own definition.Goldenrowley 09:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was upmerge
Not content with the edit-war between scoping {{China-road-stub}} as the People's Republic vs. "mainland China", we now have an un-upmerged category, entirely contrary to any sentiment over at /P, and where the category's clearly much too small at present. Upmerge, and strongly urge certain parties to knock it on the head. Alai 07:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete cat and upmerge the template as per Alai. Caerwine Caer’s whines 07:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep I didn't create this out of any edit war, I made it because it pulled ~50 stubs out of china-geo stub which is too huge. What is it supposed to upmerge too? SchmuckyTheCat 16:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  • It currently has 34 entries in the category, which is too small. As for the the overlarge size of {{China-geo-stub}}, that's currently the subject of a proposal to further split up by region, tho I do note that the proposal for additional regional splits was made at about the same time as you did your split out of the road stubs. The only problem with that split is that there are as of yet too few stub articles about Chinese roads to warrant separating it out as a separate stub category. Caerwine Caer’s whines 17:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not usually in stub sorting discussions and not aware that 34 is too small. SchmuckyTheCat 22:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• • I thought it was implicit in my statement that we had the revert war over scope (in which you participated), and then we had the unproposed, guidelines-ignoring un-upmerger. It's supposed to upmerge to, well, the places it was before you changed it. Alai 02:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

But that category (china-geo-stub) is too large. If one is too large but this is too small to sub-out... ugh. SchmuckyTheCat 22:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

There's a proposal in hand to split that up geographically, which will take care of the "too large" problem. (Look for the discussion at WP:WSS/P with the banned users and vote-stackers.) Alai 02:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was move, keep redirect
Rename for consistency with with other history stubs which use -hist-; no problem with keeping the existing template as a redirect or if anyone is feeling ambitious, going the other way and doing a mass SFD nom to make -history- the standard instead of the abbreviation. However, absent such a mass nomination, rename. Caerwine Caer’s whines 19:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Strong 'move', weak 'keep redirect'. Alai 02:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Support of rename. Goldenrowley 02:45, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename
Template name is OK, by hierarchy convention, but this doesn't make much sense at this category name. Perm-parent is Cat:prehistoric mammals. Alai 03:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• Rename per nom. Caerwine Caer’s whines 19:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete
A pair of Kyrgyzstan related redirects that are currently empty. (I just moved about one-third of the geo's to {{Kyrgyzstan-geo-stub}}, nothing was using {{Kyrg-stub}} instead of {{Kyrgyzstan-stub}}.) Lets reduce the number of cryptic exceptions to our rules concerning these redirects and delete both. Caerwine Caer’s whines 18:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Delete. Not needed and non-standard abbreviation. Valentinian ^{T / C} 19:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename
Though PNG-geo-stub is unambiguous, sooner or later, we're going to want a general stub for Papua New Guinea, and PNG-stub won't do due to its ambiguity - though there are no other places known as PNG, other things are. To get around the problem before it arises (which it may do pretty soon), I'd like to move PNG-geo-stub to the longer name - no opinion one way or the other about keeping the redirect, though I suspect it might be better if it went. Grutness...wha? 22:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

None of those other things are likely to have a stub category of their own and certainly is no more problematic than using NI for Northern Ireland indeed I would say less problematic since {{NI-politician-stub}} could be for stub articles for the Non-Inscrits in the European parliament. Support the new template name, but indifferent as to the fate of the original. Caerwine Caer’s whines 00:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Rename (per nom or to at least something less cryptic). PNG isn't just a disambig, nor even a redirect, but an article on a completely different topic. (I'd also favour getting rid of NI-, NZ- and HK-, for that matter.) Alai 00:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I know I'm biased, but NZ is a disambiguoation page to three things relating to New Zealand and one redlinked enzyme, so i doubt there's much problem there. Grutness...wha? 04:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I support changing to the latter stub name. Then all geo stubs would be entered in the same format, instead of a few with abbreviations.Gittinsj 21:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)gittinsj

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The result of the debate was rename to X video game stubs, for consistency
We seem to have numerous subcats of what's now Cat:video game stubs that neglect to mention the small matter of the "video" part. In some cases that's implied, and the permcats follow the same structure, but others look rather fishy -- not all games in the 'genre' are computer games, and the permcat parent does make the CVGness explicit. I think one or two of these were renamed at CFD, but mostly they seem to have been just created that way (and are listed at /ST, whether or not they were actually proposed or "discovered").

• Cat:strategy game stubs → Cat:strategy computer game stubs (per permcat Cat:strategy computer games, or else to Cat:strategy video games (or even Cat:video strategy game stubs), and reconsider parent's name)
• Cat:puzzle game stubs → Cat:puzzle video game stubs (permcat is at Cat:puzzle computer and video games, perhaps this should be CFR'd)
• Cat:music game stubs → Cat:music video game stubs (per permcat)
• Cat:racing game stubs → Cat:racing video game stubs (per permcat)
• Cat:simulation game stubs → Cat:simulation video game stubs (per permcat)
• Cat:sports game stubs → Cat:sports video game stubs (per permcat)

Rename all to something making "video" (and/or "computer") explicit, hopefully in a way consistent with permcat's terminology. Alai 21:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was upmerge
Unproposed - a subnational bio-stub, and as such contrary to normal stub-splitting practice. Bio-stubs are not created for subnational regions except in those rare cases such as politician-stubs where there is a specific connection of an individual with a region, for the reason that people move around far too much for any such stub split to be effective. Splitting is by nationality and by occupation, not by individual state. Note: there is a Washington WikiProject, but if a state-specific WP wants to keep track of articles relevant to it, a talk-page template is likely a far better solution than a stub type. Delete. Grutness...wha? 09:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Oops. I didn't realize there was a stub proposal process. Bio stubs already exist for a few other US states, see Cat:American people stubs:
Cat:Florida people stubs
Cat:Iowa people stubs
Cat:Oregon people stubs
Cat:Texas people stubs
Cat:Utah people stubs
If this one should go those probably should as well... dyknowsore 09:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The main reason that we are generally adverse to these state level stubs is that they have a tendency to be overused. They should be used only when the person's notability is specific to that state. OTOH people such as Mildred Bailey who are merely born there but have a notability that is not due to what she did in her home state should not use such stubs. Still, all 6 of the current Washington bio stubs do meet that standard, but unless that total can be raised to 60, this should be deleted or upmerged to {{Washington-stub}}. Caerwine Caer’s whines 19:42, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Keep {{Oregon-bio-stub}}. Used as part of a very active WikiProject that is in the middle of adding many articles on people important to the history of Oregon. I find it useful. Created in July 2005, it is populated with 60+ articles. Katr67 18:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Keep the {{Oregon-bio-stub}} as it is used extensively. Though there is a WP:WPOR template for the talk pages, with hundreds (if not thousands) of WPOR articles it is not that useful for trying to find articles that need expanding. That's where the stub tags come in, which I would guess is the entire reason for having the stub templates (identify articles that could use attention) going off the language at WP:WSS. Not to mention sub-national stubs should be appropriate as the large countries (i.e. not the micro states of Europe) have more people in these sub-national regions that some entire countries. I believe California has about as many people as all of Canada, and I know there has to be a province in China with a bigger population than any country in Europe. So is it fair that Belguim (population 10 mil+) can have a bio stub, but California (population 33 mil+) cannot? That just does not make since when taking into account the purpose of these stubs. Aboutmovies 20:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Keep {{tl:Oregon-bio-stub}}. If this stub is one of the tools that keeps Katr67 as productive as she is, this is a no-brainer. AboutMovies is also a highly valued member of our WikiProject, but I don't necessarily agree with his argument here - I believe people move about more freely within the USA than within Belgium, and can understand how state level bio stubs might become unweildy on that basis. But, I want to reiterate: if this tool is deemed important by highly productive members of our community, that in itself should be a compelling reason to keep - even if it means Oregon is treated differently from other states that have only 6 such stubs. -Pete 22:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• I don't understand why Katr67 added {{sfd-t}} to the {{Oregon-bio-stub}} template. While the type was mentioned in this discussion, it was in the context of why {{Washington-bio-stub}} should or should not be kept. The Oregon bio stub was not under any consideration for change, so I've deleted the {{sfd-t}} template from {{Oregon-bio-stub}}. This discussion is solely on whether there should be a {{Washington-bio-stub}} and since it is still severely undersized at only 8 stubs, I would say no. Caerwine Caer’s whines 00:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Looks to me like dyknowsore is the one who added Oregon's to the list of stubs under consideration in the discussion above. Thanks for clarifying that the Oregon people stub is not part of this action. -Pete 00:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I got jumpy, but I've seen things added to deletion discussions with "might as well delete this one too" that never got tagged, so no one was notifed, and then they subsequently got deleted, leaving behind baffled editors. One example I can think of is 50 or so List of bands from (U.S. state) Foo, most of which were deleted out of process. Fortunately someone went back and relisted everything properly. In the end they got deleted again, but not before editors were able to go back and put the bands in the lists into the various state music categories instead. Anyway, I wouldn't have even known about this discussion except that I tagging something with the Washington stub today, and I would have hated to see the Oregon stub go without a discussion. (As for the Washington stub, WPWA doesn't seem to be using it so they should be given a chance to populate it and if they do so, then I would vote Keep). So... since someone from WPSS put your project tag on the Oregon stub, does that mean it is "safe"? Katr67 02:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• Unless someone nominates it for deletion, it should be safe. The admins who normally close out the discussions here are fairly conservative about making certain that the template or cat was tagged before it gets deleted or renamed, indeed some would say too conservative, but deletion is one of those things where being process-bound is a good thing IMO. Caerwine Caer’s whines 03:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I've typically been the SFD-closer lately, and I would say that Washington-bio-stub is the only one being taken into consideration. The others were added by someone other than the original nominator, so they should get their own separate nomination. I have removed the SFD notice on everything except Washington. Never mind, it looks like they're gone already... Also, consensus seems kind of split, so I'm leaving this open for a bit longer to get some more votes. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 13:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
    • There haven't been any more votes either way, but there are only 10 articles in the category. I will probably upmerge this into Cat:Washington stubs later today, unless there are any other ideas. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 18:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was no consensus

• Cat:Canada geography stubs → Cat:Canadian geography stubs
• Cat:Canada government stubs → Cat:Canadian government stubs
• Cat:Canada newspaper stubs → Cat:Canadian newspaper stubs
• Cat:Canada politics stubs → Cat:Canadian politics stubs
• Cat:Canada road stubs → Cat:Canadian road stubs
• Cat:Canada university stubs → Cat:Canadian university stubs

For the avoidance of 'stub grammar', and to match the numerous other "Canadian X stubs" subcats of Cat:Canada stubs. Alai 06:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Since the permcats are all of the form <Noun> <prep> Canada, mild support since I doubt if the alternative of naming them Cat:Geography of Canada stubs etc. will be adopted anytime soon. Caerwine Caer’s whines 08:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Though I understand the logic of this suggestion, I'm still chary about it. I for one don't want to have to consult a list every time I want to check a country's stubs simply because it uses an odd demonym - and (particularly in the case of geo-stubs) if you're going to change Canada, you're going to need to change others, too - a lot of them. There are currently closing in rapidly on 180 nation-geo-stub types,for instance, all of them using the noun form. Though grammatically it is not ideal, it's a lot easier than having to remember I-Kiribati, Equatoguinean, Kittitian-Nevisian, or Burkinabe (to name just four). Might I suggest compromise: where the permcat is "Fooian X", rename to" Fooian X stubs"; where the permcat is "X of Foo/X in Foo", keep as "Foo X stubs". That way at least there will be some consistency with the permcats, and it will make it far easier to decide exactly what stub categories should be called. Grutness...wha? 22:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not "a compromise", that's "the muddle of 'stub grammar' we've been moving away from". I am, to put it as mildly as I can manage, not convinced we should be primarily guided in naming stub categories to facilitate typing -geo-stub category names into a search box or URL -- you could just go via the template, and have less to type to boot, you realize? How does it even help people who don't necessarily have every permcat name memorised (or all types of permcats corresponding to any stub types they'd want to look up, at least)? Unless you can make a case that "Canadian" is an "odd demonym" in some way that using "Canada" attributively isn't "odd", I don't see the case against standardising on non-odd attributives. (I shall at this point state -- as I invariably do in the numerous iterations of this discussion -- that I am not somehow insisting on "adjectives, always adjectives, adjectives no matter now obscure" -- which next time 'round the loop we start all over on.) Please also note the number of existing "of/in Canada" permcats with "Canadian" stub types: do you propose to move them "back"? Alai 07:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

So what you;re suggesting is changing to demonyms on those where we can guess the demonym, but not on those we can't, making for an even bigger muddle? Euh, count me out on that one. As for following the templates, that's fine for stub-sorting, but we're doing this to make it easier for editors, and I suspect that there are a lot of editors who don't know many of the arcane demonyms for countries they deal with articles for. My suggested compromise is a compromise, since it at least makes it obvious we are following a set standard that does parallel the permcats, rather than having to look at whether we are using demonyms or country names. This is particularly relevant since many of the permcats deliberately avoid using demonyms to help editors and because those demonyms may be inappropriate. To follow that system with a parallel system for stub categories makes a lot of sense to me. Grutness...wha? 04:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm suggesting you stop hitting us over the head with "guessability" as the primary criterion, or failing which, refrain from recasting what I'm saying in those terms. What I want is stub category names that a) follow some normal, reasonable usage, rather than being purely the artefacts of a 'magimix the permcat' "standard". Would anyone ever suggest a permcat be located at "Canada <noun> <noun>s" (aside from following some strange original usage in that pattern)? And b) are reasonably consistent internally and horizontally within "geographical subdivision", which are going to be at least as important as a convenience to editors as working "per topic", especially for those as broad as "geography". (Though I'm skeptical that anyone very much works on the basis of 'type a category names guessed ab initio into a URL', so this is ultimately more about aesthetics than utility.) If people prefer, say, "California" to "Californian" as an attributive qualifier for non-people categories, as they apparently have, I have no difficulty with that. Equally, I don't feel the need to "follow the permcats off a cliff" come the fairly far-off (to say the least) circumstance of needing stubcats corresponding to Cat:Equatoguinean law or Cat:Burkinabé society if there's another attributive that's acceptable usage. (But if people don't know the "arcane" demonyms of the countries they're working on, they're going to be a little stuck with permcats like those, aren't they?)

The term "compromise" implies to me proposing some solution that's in some sense intermediate between the status quo and the proposal, rather than one that a) rejects the proposal entirely, and b) would imply further rollback of other category names to a pattern that only you appear to favour, and that we've been moving away from. If that's a "compromise", what's the "hard-line" position this in some way modifies? Alai 00:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

So, what's going on? Can I get a clearer answer? I'd like to close this out soon, and I'm not sure what the decision is. My opinion is that Canada --> Canadian is fine, but I can see how this could cause problems for other stubs. In general, I'd like to see a standard <noun> <blah> stubs pattern, as that would be the easiest to remember and would prevent strange Trinidad and Tobago-type adjective problems. Just my 2 cents... ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 18:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

There's no way this is going to be decided properly, so I'm closing this as no consensus. We need to come up with an official guideline before this can be closed one way or the other. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 13:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete
Badly-named variants of {{Caucasus-stub}} and Cat:Caucasus stubs. Note that "Caucasia" is a redirect to Caucasus. Unneccessary duplication,and thus should be deleted. Perhaps slight modification might be made to the wording of caucasus-stub to indicate that it is often taken as being a wider area than just GE, AZ and AM. Grutness...wha? 03:45, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

This one appears to have the backing of Wi